Curse

Phades · Aug 31, 2005, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

Everything require training... even in real life. There isn't a single baby born to kick anyone's ass.

There are limits to what people can do, hence why gauging aptitudes becomes relevant. The training time is still just gaining experience to know how to apply the skills inherent in the person. Also, alot of training time has more to do with direct dna properties of the individual controling muscle growth and memory. For example, i have a very hard putting on weight muscle or otherwise and the harder i train the more weight i lose. I do however gain strength and endurance in the endevor, but i will never become as strong as some other people through training, so i have to use speed and timing to gain an advantage instead of raw force. Things like this are why various sports have weight divisions, because not everyone can achieve the same state of being.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

All the FPS also required you to train/play alot to get to that level of skill.

If you have played starsiege tribes series as much as i have, you would know that statement does not hold. There are people who know how to lead and there are people who do not know how, regardless of how long they play. There are also people who are really good at rabbiting (being fast and evasive), while others are not. This is also not dictated by time played exclusivly. There is a base level of play that came with that game through experience, but it was the individual player skills that they had before walking into the game that seperated the different player styles and sucess. The games in the series managed to be hard enough that it didnt take much to foul up even a veteren player just in use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

One thing you need to realize is... this game does not rely on stat heavily... That was the whole point. In other MMORPG, the higher level = win, the more you grind = win, the more you farm = win... While those does not apply well in GW. Therefore, they got the right to say CORPG.

Naming of the genre aside, you still need certain "stats" in order to overcome another set of "stats". The game is not as "stat" dependant as other game, but it still falls to the character "stats" dictating the basic outcomes and interactions between characters. A player's skill is not going to wipe away 6 hexes stacked on an ally, convert hexes does.

Diplo · Aug 31, 2005, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Surely success is both a factor of inate skill and amount time played? Sorry if that is too obvious and observation, but it's surely also the truth.

Phades · Aug 31, 2005, 02:14 PM // 14:14

It is the skills that seperate the experienced from the truly adept though.

Many can teach, but not everyone can do.

Aracos79 · Aug 31, 2005, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

It is the skills that seperate the experienced from the truly adept though.

Many can teach, but not everyone can do.

As a teacher myself, let me say that not everyone can teach either. It ain't as easy as it looks folks.

Sciros Darkblade · Aug 31, 2005, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diplo

Surely success is both a factor of inate skill and amount time played? Sorry if that is too obvious and observation, but it's surely also the truth.

Yes.

@Phades: You say "it is the skills that separate the experienced from the truly adept."
Well, experience playing will improve your skills. It's true of almost anything that involves "developed skills." Martial arts, video games, music, etc. People improve at different speeds (some have so little talent that they barely improve at all) from practice, but they still do.

Experience, as I refer to it, is akin to Practice/Training. As you play GW, you learn new things about how best you can implement strategies, how you can handle certain builds, etc. It's not something you can read on Guru and immediately know how to do. It takes practice to be consistently successful.

Phades · Aug 31, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

You don’t gain the skills through training or practice. The skills were always there and things like people who try to instruct or give insight merely make the attempt to cause the person to become aware of the skill. Then there are some things you just can’t teach. Taught or practiced behavior is something that is gained through experience, but does not dictate the amount of skill possessed within the individual. The idea that experience overrides or dictates skill involved, would suggest that everyone is also inherently equally capable. Sadly in practice, this is not the case and even at the upper echelons of ability that are compared, there are still those that stand above the rest. Experience is not something that can be easily transferable in terms of skill, otherwise people would have merely found the formula to what causes an elite athlete, fighter, musician, or whatever to occur every time. What happens instead is that the instructors involved place everyone in the same situations and from the people involved the individuals with the appropriate skills rise above the rest. Experience will create proficiency over time though. The ability to become proficient is different than what I am trying to illustrate.

My previous statement regarding teaching was not worded perfectly. I was trying to illustrate that understanding something does not translate into the proper skill.

Blah, sorry im drifting too far into philosiphy now.

Sciros Darkblade · Aug 31, 2005, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

You don’t gain the skills through training or practice. The skills were always there and things like people who try to instruct or give insight merely make the attempt to cause the person to become aware of the skill.

You are confusing the words "skill" and "talent." They are not the same; look up "skill" in a dictionary please ;_; this is totally not what we should be discussing.

Quote:

Then there are some things you just can’t teach. Taught or practiced behavior is something that is gained through experience, but does not dictate the amount of skill possessed within the individual.

Again you don't know what the word skill means -_-
Go to Google, type "define:skill" in the search bar. Then please concede the point.

Quote:

The idea that experience overrides or dictates skill involved, would suggest that everyone is also inherently equally capable.

Then it's a good thing I never said "experience overrides skill." I said it affected it, which you will be hardpressed to disprove, seeing as you now know the meaning of the word "skill" ~_^

I apologize if I am being condescending; I really don't mean to be. But please look the word up and you will see what meaning I am using and how you are MIS-using it. It's a misunderstanding, as I've said before.

JoDiamonds · Aug 31, 2005, 06:02 PM // 18:02

This is getting pretty semantic, but it was never far off from that to start with.

Phades, I disagree with your given definition of "skill", though the ideas are generally sound.

From dictionary.com:

Skill: "Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience."

Different people have different skill levels, obviously (just like experience, knowledge, blah blah blah). For nearly everyone, you can increase your skill level through practice or experience. On a related note, you pretty much can't increase your skill without experience. You can increase your knowledge, perhaps, but some kind of experience is necessary to improve your skill. (It doesn't have to be directly related: If you spend time learning to become a touch typist and don't need to look at the keyboard anymore, that will likely increase your skill in Guild Wars.)

What can't be improved is talent. Talent is regarded as something innate, and you cannot actually gain talent (or talents). You can certainly discover that you have talents you didn't know about, and you can develop your talents (which is largely the same thing as practicing to increase your skill).

Clearly, just because two people have both played Guild Wars for a thousand hours doesn't mean they are of equal skill. But each of them almost surely possesses far greater skill than they did a thousand hours of playtime ago. One of them might still be far, far better than the other. This could be because of increased knowledge (studied Guru forums more), natural talent, or just because of related skills they've used before (one of them never played a computer game before, the other has won money in FPS contests as well as Magic tournaments).

Of course, not all experiences are the same. If you are never challenged, or are somehow hopelessly outmatched (and therefore die within five seconds), then there is little chance to learn. The quality of the experiences may differ greatly.

This is all greatly philosophical in general, but the whole concept of comparing Experience vs. Skill is just weird. If you increase your experience with something, you almost always increase your skills at the same time.

In general, having more experience or skill is likely to lead to greater success. So stop reading forums and go play Guild Wars!

EDIT: And, of course, Sciros largely beat me to the punch. =)

Phades · Aug 31, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Yeah talent was the word i was reaching for and i began to realize the error in the previous post, but to backpeddle and edit previous posts would have been bad form. I was too focused on the reason for the end result in the differences between people versus the terminology used for praise to stop and think about it. Talent with expereince would lead to the description of being skillful as only experience leads towards average ability common to many. The time required to gain the experience would also fall to talent as well.

Still, trying to disprove webster would be difficult to impossible.

Vermilion Okeanos · Aug 31, 2005, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Heh, it got interesting while I was away o.o

Anyway... I think it is settle...

GuildWars is a game that require training and the talent to use those training to the fullest in order to succeed.

Actually... hmm... now that I give it a 2nd thought... that is a little off... Getting a good team and a bad team can almost be a luck of the draw... The right place, at the right time, with the right people... Initially... Later maybe you can form a community or something, but how would you ever get a good community going if you luck are that bad and you were never at the right place at the right time with the right people? This aspect of GW annoy me alot.

UberRusty · Aug 31, 2005, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

hack still require time to actually understand the program

oh... and the dev probably got a big head start on that one.

Using hacks, not writing hacks. (Using hacks = 1 minute learning, unless you're slow) I use Signet Hacks ftw, insanely insane.